Podcast Transcription

Intro: Welcome to “Flippin’ Off,” a purpose-driven podcast about flipping houses and making a difference.

Melina: All right. Good afternoon. Melina Boswell here, founder and CEO of New Wealth Advisors Club. And normally as I start podcasts, I’m usually giggling, and laughing, and having a lot of fun. Today it’s, you know, my joy isn’t gone, right? I feel joy in my heart, but my spirit is heavy, you know? I feel heavy based on just the current state of our affairs as a nation, as a state, as a city and, you know, specifically as just a human, my heart is heavy. And I’ve spent the last few days…this is on the heels of Pentecost weekend, which is interesting, and a lot of protests and demonstrations to create a conversation for change, I think and maybe yeah, awareness. You know, there are so many words I think that are cliche and cliquey, and my big concern is that they don’t have any power behind them. So today I’m taking a different turn for the podcast recording. And I have a special guest, a very, very dear friend of mine and mentor in many ways, Mr. Sylvester Wallace.

Sylvester: Hey.

Melina: We also call him Sly. And I have in the house also my son, David Boswell.

David: Hey, guys.

Sylvester: My man.

Melina: Yeah. Amir Iliav.

Amir: Hey, guys.

Melina: And Oscar Solares.

Oscar: Hey, everyone.

Melina: So we are your rat-a-tat-tat panel for today.

Sylvester: Love it.

Melina: …the table of the misfits.

Sylvester: Yeah.

Melina: And I just wanted to have a conversation today, and I asked Sly to come down as a leader in the community. That’s how I see you, an African-American male leader in the community, leader of a church, pastors a church, also a personal trainer. So you have a lot of influence over a lot of people. And so, you know, I called Sly and I said, “Hey, would you be willing to have a conversation with me about the state of our nation?” And Sly said, “Absolutely.” And so I was sharing with him that, you know, on Sunday, I went down to one of the protests in Downtown Huntington Beach where I live in my city, and I was there, and I was so moved by the people that were there. I was moved by the, you know, I felt such pain, such honest, real pain, and cries. And, you know, just hearing “I can’t breathe.” It was devastating, right? And so I was in tears most of the time, and I spent my time… I felt it would be arrogant for me to say anything. I felt like I had no right to say anything, and so I just decided that the best practice, the best thing that I could do was experience what everybody else was feeling and to pray and to provide covering. And that’s how I viewed my position and my purpose for being there. And as I was there in all the beauty, as people began to sort of disassemble after a very calm, peaceful, wonderful protest of seriously, nothing but love, as it started to break up, I heard people start mumbling and saying things like, “Well, that was boring.” And, you know, later on that day, it turned into fights, and it became violent. And, you know, here’s, I think, the thing that happened for me is somebody said, you know, “Why do they have to, you know, riot?” And I said…it just hit me so square in my eyes that nobody listens to the peaceful protest until something’s on fire.

David: It’s true.

Sylvester: It’s a true statement.

Melina: Right?

David: Unfortunately.

Sylvester: It’s a true statement.

Melina: And it just broke my heart, and I felt so heavy. And I felt like I couldn’t get out of bed. I just was so devastated, and I became so unbelievably aware of… I never consider myself ever to see people in color, and I’ve come to the realization I don’t believe that I would say people that are, for example, pursuing real estate investment as an entrepreneur or they’re looking at entrepreneurship, I bet you 99.9% of them will absolutely say, “There is not one racist bone in my body.” And I believe that they believe that. But what I now recognize is that there is this unconscious bias, this…and I told you, this institutionalized racism that our country was actually founded on. And I wanna talk about that because I want people to have the same conviction and, you know, for the first time ever, I didn’t tell you this, I heard somebody say…when people were saying, “Black lives matter,” and somebody said, “All lives matter.” And I just felt this pierce in my heart of “Shut your mouth. Don’t say that.” It’s so rude. It’s so disrespectful. It is the game. It’s like the devil of comparison. Don’t compare. And I likened it to when Dave died and people would say, “Oh, I lost my grandmother.” And you’re, like, that’s not the same. Your pain is real, but it’s not the same.

Sylvester: Not the same, yeah.

Melina: All lives do matter. That’s not this conversation. And so I really want people to be made aware of it, and I want people to get pierced in their hearts like I have been because I don’t think any policy changes anything, Sly.

Sylvester: At all. It’s really sad. I can tell you this is, unfortunately, common ground for me now. I remember in 1992 and Tyisha Miller right here in Riverside. And then I can even go back into history where two of my uncles were killed by Klan members and their wives. They raped their wives, and they put their bodies on the train track and said that they were killed by the trains. There was never an investigation. There was never any justice. And so for me, this pain runs extraordinarily deep for me. And it really puts an individual in a position of desperation. I’m not a man of war, per se. I’m not a violent man at all. But to know that an innocent life was sifted slowly, I mean, eight minutes, eight… What can you do in eight minutes? You can make a sandwich. You can wash your car. You can read a chapter in a book. You can do homework. Eight minutes as an eternity for someone to put their weight and look callously off as if you don’t even matter. What is an institution? It’s so ingrained in our thought process. It’s so ingrained in the institution of what the United States is. It’s in our DNA that you can kill somebody without feeling, without apparent ramifications. And so Sunday, I must confess to you that I didn’t preach on the Pentecost. I wasn’t touched…

Melina: I know. I watched you.

Sylvester: I wasn’t talking about “Let the Holy Spirit to come down, Jesus.” I was talking about, “Let’s burn that mentality now. Let’s go set it on fire. I am so sick of this.” But that’s the point of desperation that we feel as a community. And I think I can summarize the experience. It’s “We’re tired. We’re frustrated. We have protested peacefully to no avail. We have petitioned law enforcement in the highest echelons of leadership, no avail.” And I get the protesters. This is a different generation. You know, before, when I was a kid, not as a kid, but in 1992 during the Rodney King riots, it was African-Americans predominantly and a few sprinkled people here and there. No. I looked at the Riverside protests. It was, like, that’s all white people. Hey, where is all the black people? I know, man. This is weird.

Melina: It’s true. It’s true. Yeah.

Sylvester: But people as a whole are seeing that the institutional, galvanized, reinforced racism is unjust. But to be quite frank with you, when you tie racism to finances, that’s the key. Racism is tied into the very structure, the DNA of our society because it’s financially-driven. And when you tie money to hatred…

David: What do you mean by that? You mean like… lots of money.

Sylvester: Like, for instance, like during the Bill Clinton era, they built more prisons. And Bill Clinton is a Democrat. And then the three-strike law came. Okay. The three-strike law impacted minorities more than anybody else. The prisons were privately-owned, so obviously, the more people in the prisons, the more money that I make. So for me to be able to stereotype you or for me to be able to racially profile you, it’s now a matter of resources. It’s all a matter of money. And so until you break the backbone of economics or racial economics, it’s never gonna change. It’s never gonna change.

Melina: Wow. Wow.

Oscar: I love what you said there, right, the finances, because on the prison side of things, it really did become an investment vehicle.

Sylvester: That’s cold. Wow.

Oscar: It was an investment vehicle, right?

Sylvester: Yeah.

Oscar: And people step into an investment, they don’t process what they’re really truly investing in. It’s like when I buy a stock in Apple, for example, right?

Sylvester: That’s good. That’s good.

Oscar: It’s, like, oh, it’s technology. Yeah. Got it. But it’s not presented as this is the New York State Prison that I’m investing in. It’s a fund that they invest in.

Melina: Agreed. Agreed.

Sylvester: That’s right. That’s right. That’s heavy.

Oscar: And now you have these people that don’t know what they’re investing in. People know, right? But certain people are blind to it because they don’t do their research. They don’t really do the analysis behind it. It’s insane. Yeah. So it’s a great point. Great, great point. Yeah.

Sylvester: And it’s really…oh, go ahead.

Melina: No. No, I’m just thinking, you know, like, that didn’t even dawn on me to have that conversation. Didn’t even, like, I’m just tripping out right now on just how ugly it is, just how seedy and disgusting it is, right?

Sylvester: Yeah. Yeah.

Melina: When you tie hatred to money. And here’s my question for you. Do you believe that people who bought, right, that stock if they don’t know, I think times have changed now. I feel like times have changed and people actually care much, much more now.

Oscar: They do more research.

Melina: They do more research.

Oscar: Yeah, they study more, yeah.

Melina: They do more research now. People are taking more responsibility.

Oscar: Absolutely.

Melina: But I wonder if people really understood, or they just don’t think anything of it.

Sylvester: Yeah. It’s really capitalism at its finest.

Melina: It really is, yeah.

Sylvester: It’s supply and demand. It was interesting because my wife and I, we were watching the TV and…

Melina: Big mistake.

Sylvester: Yeah. Yeah. Terrible mistake.

Melina: Terrible. Terrible.

Sylvester: So we’re watching the TV and how the media propagates and uses a format of sensationalism for ratings. You did not… I mean, I had no idea that Huntington was protesting until the news flash comes on. “Anti-protest clashes,” and it’s this big, violent thing. And it was, like, there was… And again, that goes back to economics. “So if I sensationalize, I get viewers. If I get viewers, I get sponsorships. If I get sponsorships, the bottom line is we make money.” And so it’s just really sad. And until there is…at the risk of sounding a tad bit militant, because I can be a little military once in a while. I think we’re two generations away from leveling the impact of racism and this is why. If we can get our children’s children to be in position to sit on the judges seats, to become law enforcement, to become the attorneys, to become the investors… That’s why I love what you do. You create an environment for persons, regardless of their background, regardless of their social economics, regardless of how they started, to create wealth, to impact change. Wealth is power.

Melina: Yes, it is.

Sylvester: I don’t care how you slice it or dice it.

Melina: That’s right.

Sylvester: Wealth is power. And for us to be able to get in these positions to influence change, become the congressmen, become, you know, become senators… Because as long as we’re violently protesting, that goes back to re-gentrification. Because once you violently protest and you burn down Timmy’s supermarket, Timmy is not gonna build a supermarket in your neighborhood again.

Melina: That’s right.

Sylvester: He’s gonna go up the street and then that’s gonna be empty. And you know what? Some investor is gonna come in with money, and he’s gonna re-gentrify your area, and he’s gonna push you out of the area that you could afford. And now that increases the homeless situation. It’s a vicious circle. And again, it all goes back to money. But anyways, my wife and I was watching the TV and the news media was only showing African-Americans looting.

David: It’s true.

Sylvester: And I was like, wait a minute.

Melina: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s not…yeah.

Sylvester: So we went to…even CNN as…I’m not gonna go there but okay. Praise the Lord. Anyway, it seems like as soon as like, there is, like, different minority or when other races started looting, “Now switching over to…” let’s say, you know. And I was, like, “Come on,” you know, they panned away.

David: You know what? It’s actually true. It’s actually true.

Melina: True.

Sylvester: Because they’re perpetuating fear. Fear sells but what about, you know, being the African-American and driving down the street and driving by law enforcement and wondering, “Am I gonna get stopped today?” This is a true story. When I moved to Corona, I moved there because my son is a phenomenal wrestler. So I wanted to create an environment so he can be successful. And they had great coaches at a school called Centennial. I was literally stopped four times in two weeks by the same law enforcement, the exact, same person.

David: The same cop?

Sylvester: The same cop.

Melina: Really?

Sylvester: It was so bad on the last time that this individual stopped me, I looked at her and I was, like, “I know you.” And she goes, “All right. Just go. Just go.” And she let me off. And that’s the last time she stopped me. But it was just the fact that now I’m driving down Rimpau, or I’m driving up the street wondering, “Am I gonna get stopped today just because I’m black?” That’s a real pain. This is not something that I’m delusional. Listen, I’m a United States Marine Corps. I mean, I’m a disabled veteran. I believe in the United States of America. I believe in the land of the free and the home of the brave. I was willing to put my life on the line. I’ve done things for this nation that I’m not necessarily proud of. And then to come back to the same nation that I’m willing to die for and be treated in a second-class citizen, it’s offensive. It’s, like, “Well, what was the point?” What was the point?

Melina: That is really mind-boggling too when you say two uncles were murdered.

Sylvester: Yeah.

Melina: What?

Sylvester: Yeah.

Melina: Right. And you went and defended this country.

Sylvester: Yeah. Yeah. Matter of fact, my parents were upset.

Melina: Were they?

Sylvester: I mean, that’s why I’m saying in two generations.

Melina: Yeah, because legacy is real.

Sylvester: That’s right. That’s right. It was so intense for me when I said, “Mom and dad, I wanna go to the Marine Corps.” And they were like, “Do you know your uncles were killed and this and this and that? You wanna die for a nation that doesn’t give up blank about you? This is what you expect and this…”And they went on and on. And the whole time I was in the service, they disagreed, but they were supportive just because of my decision. It wasn’t until I got out that I began to understand what racism really was, you know? No, actually, I really found out what racism was in the service.

Melina: Really?

Sylvester: Oh, yeah. I had no idea there were so many derogatory names for black people, white people, Jewish people, Mexican people. I was, like, “Whoa. Hey. Whoa. Whoa.” It’s taught there. It’s segregated. The military is segregated. Like, they have tables. And you can vouch for this, right, because you’re in the Marine Corps, right?

Oscar: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I’m in the marine corps.

Sylvester: Yes. So, you know, like, the brothers ate here, the Mexicans ate here, the white people ate here. It’s like jail.

Christian: Hi, this is Christian Rios. As many of you know, I have been a member of New Wealth Advisors Club for over 7 years and got started when I was 17 years old with absolutely no real estate experience. One of the biggest lessons I’ve learned from being in the industry is the need for authentic relationships. If you’re looking for an actual team locally in Southern California with all the resources needed to close deals, register for one of our free workshops by visiting www.joinnwac.com. Thanks for listening to the “Flippin’ Off podcast.”

Sylvester: All right. Yeah. So, you know, like, the brothers ate here, the Mexicans ate here, the white people ate here. It’s like jail.

Oscar: Oh my god.

Sylvester: I’m serious.

Melina: Isn’t that crazy?

Sylvester: Tell them about it, man.

Oscar: So when I went to Okinawa and I spent time there, I was there for a year. And I ran into an old, crusty, Master Gunnery Sergeant, right? And a master Sergeant. And they were in the ’60s.

Sylvester: Cool. Hell yeah.

Oscar: So they were telling us all the…you know, for me it was as a minority, it’s weird, right? Because you think it’s a unit so we’re all one. And when it comes down to it, I think we are but peacetime does some weird stuff, right?

Sylvester: Oh, yeah.

Oscar: Peacetime is where everybody’s, like, cliquey and does all that.

Melina: Yeah, everybody, yeah, softens up.

Oscar: But they were talking about how you would have the white military guys chasing the minorities across the base in fights during the ’60s.

Sylvester: Yeah. Yeah. That’s crazy.

Oscar: But then when crap hit the fan, everybody’s together.

Sylvester: Everybody is together.

Oscar: …defending each other. We got each other’s six, we got each other’s back. Everything’s good, right? But then you go back to peace and weird things happen in peace. And, you know, I’ve always said that all military services, police forces, all of that, right, is a direct reflection of the community and the societies, right?

Sylvester: That’s good. That’s good.

Oscar: Right. So you can’t be fooled to think that you’re stepping into a different environment and not expect what’s out there. It’s just not possible because that’s where you’re picking people from.

Melina: Yeah, that’s right.

Sylvester: That’s right.

Oscar: Right? You’re picking people from the South. You’re picking people from the coasts. You’re picking people from the Midwest, right? And we all show up with our own beliefs.

Sylvester: That’s good. Oscar: I mean, there’s, there’s people that don’t know…when I joined, there was people that were like, “What are you?”

Melina: What are you?

Oscar: Like, you’re not black, and you’re not white. “Well, I’ve never met no Hispanic,” right? I was like…I’m, like, seriously. Right?

Sylvester: Right. You’re dead out there for sure.

Oscar: It really was this depending on where you’re from.

Amir: Very similar when you’re in the army too.

Melina: It is?

Amir: Yeah.

Melina: Yeah.

Amir: Because up until… So we go to the army at the age of 18. Everybody go. So it’s, you know, you live in your own bubble until you’re 18, and then you’re coming to a place where all of your, like, the whole country is there mixed and you get exposed to, you know, personalities, backgrounds that it’s absolutely…

Melina: So, Amir, that’s an interesting question. So, what are the different backgrounds? Is it more religious? Is it more religion?

Amir: In Israel?

Melina: Yeah. Versus skin color, for example.

Amir: Right. Yeah. Our wound, if you like, you know, our wound in the society is not the skin color, right? Like for us, it’s, by the way, for us it’s, you know, it’s religion.

Sylvester: Wow.

Amir: It is ethnicity, right?

Melina: Uh-huh.

Amir: We have, you know, just different minorities, you know, that absolutely suffer from, you know, from suppression. It’s real.

Sylvester: Wow. Wow.

Amir: And, you know, I’m just sitting here, and I’m just…I’m listening, Sly, and I’m just so grateful that you’re here.

Sylvester: Amir, I’m honored.

Amir: I am so grateful that your voice is, you know, heard in our community. It’s something I can’t even, like, tell you enough. Like for me, since this whole thing started, right, I’m living in the States for eight years now, something like that. And I always, kind of, I always refrained from touching that subject because I always felt, you know, it’s… I didn’t grow up here. You know, I don’t know, like, the nuances in culture. I don’t wanna, like, speak about something that I know how deeply-rooted that is. And I don’t wanna, like, just say something and sound like I know we have in Israel enough laundry of our own, right? And when I hear opinions, you know, about what’s going on in our society, regardless if it’s, you know, if it’s pro or, you know, that’s also subjective, but regardless of what that opinion is, it always sounds a bit…

Melina: Arrogant.

Amir: Arrogant, not smart.

Melina: Ignorant.

Amir: Ignorant. Ignorant. Even if it’s, like, what I wanna hear, it’s pro-Israel, right, like whatever.

Melina: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.

Amir: It’s just ignorant. But this one when I saw that video, just shook me to my core, to my core. And I feel… Personally, I feel I’m not, you know, I’m not the only one. Like, I’ve never seen…because we’ve been here. We’ve been here, Eric Garner, and we’ve been to other, you know, black, young men that, you know, that were killed by police officers. We’ve been here in the last…at least by the time I’m here. And it feels like this one hit different to a lot of people.

Sylvester: Of course it did because you’ve seen it. It’s eight minutes, eight minutes. We could clear a house in a combat environment in less than eight minutes. I guess I’m wrapping my brain. No one had around what about common human decency?

Melina: Seriously?

Sylvester: Do you know what I’m saying?

Melina: Yeah.

Sylvester: Like, just, “Sir, he’s saying he can’t breathe.” And it was, like, “I’m not gonna be content until you die.” That was the look. Man, but we’re taught, I mean, I remember my father having a conversation with me. He said, “Son, this is the kind of situations that further perpetuate, you know, that mindset.” My mother and father told me…we were living in Syracuse, New York, and we was in the hood. Like, when I say “the hood,” the hood, not “the,” “da hood,” okay? We were in the hood. And so my father got a break, and he started working for this company called Anheuser-Busch. And so that was, like, a big deal because they paid, like, a lot of good money, right? And my mom started working for General Motors. So we moved to the suburbs called Cicerone, New York. And my father had to sit me down because I’m, like, “Oh, we got a backyard now. Oh, look, we got to toys. Oh, look, we got neighbors.” This is great, right? This is dope. My father sat me down and said, “Listen, son. The kids may be cool with you, but the parents are not. You can’t go to their houses. They don’t feel like you feel for them.” And so he had to give me, “No, dad, no. I like little Tommy.” And I went to little Tommy’s house and little Tommy’s father was like, “You can’t come in here.” And it was, like, this is systemic. And the conversations that I had to have with my sons, check it out. “Listen, man, you’re a great athlete. As long as you’re playing ball, as long as you’re doing this, they’ll love you. But I promise you when the music stops, and the basketball goes down, and the wrestling uniform gets folded away, they don’t wanna be bothered.” “Dad, that’s your generation.” That’s just what I’m talking about. And again, he’s seen it happen. It really starts with conversations like these with us forcing our kids to have exposure to different people. Racism can be disseminated if we just expose one another. I’m not gonna lie to you. I’m from New York. Only people I’ve seen was Puerto Rican, and black, and white, and Italian. When I got out here, I seen a burrito for the first time, I was like, “Del Taco. What is that?” I was, like, “This is dope. I was, like, Del Taco.”

Melina: It’s true.

Sylvester: I’m serious. There’s no Del Taco in Syracuse, New York. Come on, man.

Melina: No.

Oscar: Or in New York. I’m Puerto Rican.

Melina: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Sylvester: Yeah.

Melina: Right.

Oscar: Just what I thought.

Sylvester: And it’s just exposure. We can’t be blind and ambivalent to the differences in one another. I think it’s beautiful. I had a thought if the whole world was black, I think that would suck. If everybody was black… Yeah, he’s black. That’s another black guy over there. There’s another one there. But I like the beautiful things that, you know, that Asian brings. I like the beauty in, like, the white people, and the Polish, and the German. And we all make this beautiful symphony of artistic love that God put us all together so we can enjoy that and not use it to kill one another. I don’t know.

Melina: Yeah, I think that’s so true. I was sharing earlier that I was having a conversation… You know, I’ve had so many conversations specifically with my dad. My dad is 83 and just asking him about the ’68 riots and what that was like and he was like, he told me, you know, it’s so interesting. I said, “How did you feel? Like, were you outraged?” And he said, “Yeah.” He goes, “You know, it’s,” he said, “At the time, I was living in Pasadena.”

Sylvester: Pasadena. Mm-hmm.

Melina: And he said, “And my roommate was black.” My dad said it was such a unique thing he realizes now being raised and born and raised in Riverside, California because Riverside is the city of refuge. We were created as a city of refuge. So we’ve always been so diverse, you know. And my best friend and I were talking about this. We went to school with, like, just multi-colors. There was never…it was…I never felt that in my…nothing, you know? And my dad was sharing with me. And this was I think probably goes back to my conversation about it’s a mindset, and this is where my dad and I got to because somebody said, “What policies do we need to change?” And I said, “I don’t even know if it’s policy. Don’t you think it’s a mindset?” It’s a mindset.

Sylvester: Yeah. Yeah. That’s good. That’s good.

Melina: It’s, you know… And my dad said, “Yeah, you know, as I think about it,” he goes, “We owned orange groves.” And my dad said, you know, and this was in the ’30s. And he said, “We didn’t have people that worked for us. They worked with us, and we had black families, we had white families, which was our family, right, and then Mexican families.” And my dad was telling me that…he said, “We grew all of our own vegetables.” He said, “My dad,” which would be my grandfather, “was a farmer.” And he said, “We always grew all of our own vegetables.” And he said, “In fact, my dad actually had three separate gardens for the three separate families.”

Sylvester: I love it.

Melina: He said because it turns out…and this is exactly what my dad said. He goes “You know the black folks like to eat different vegetables than the Mexicans like to eat.”

Sylvester: It’s true.

Melina: “And they like to eat different vegetables than the white folks like to eat.” And my dad said, “And so it wasn’t that they were segregated. It was that this is the food that they liked. And so we would share food with each other.” And he said, “I can remember my mom, like, trying different, you know, dishes and learning how to cook new vegetables and learning about each other.”

Sylvester: I love that you just said that. Yes.

Melina: And so isn’t that interesting? So don’t you think, though, that that has something to do with the mindset?

Sylvester: Absolutely.

Melina: Somehow I was lucky enough and blessed enough to have grandparents who were, you know, I don’t know, wise?

Sylvester: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Melina: You know, right? And then they raised my dad that way, but there was never a conversation.

Sylvester: Especially in those days.

Melina: No.

Sylvester: Jim Crow and segregation, they were phenomenal people to do that and just…

Melina: Yeah. I didn’t even know that. And I was embarrassed to admit this. I’m totally embarrassed, and this is why I wanted to have the conversation. I’m so not proud that I had to look up what Jim Crow was. Don’t look at me like that. I know. I didn’t even know. He’s like, “What?”

Oscar: I’m looking at you and I’m just surprised.

Melina: I know. Surprised, right? I seriously didn’t know. You don’t know either. Yeah.

David: I’m sure a lot of people don’t. So we should tell them.

Melina: Yeah. Yeah. Well, so, I mean,

Oscar: Tell us.

Sylvester: Jim Crow was…

Melina: Unbelievable.

Sylvester: Okay.

Melina: Yeah. Yeah.

Sylvester: Way back, back, back. Okay. Let me just summarize it because I don’t know if we have enough time. Jim Crow was basically systemic, institutionalized racism, and segregation at its finest, basically gave you the steps on how to be an effective racist.

Melina: For real. That’s what it was.

Sylvester: Seriously. It gave you steps.

Amir: Is that the person? Is that… What was it?

Sylvester: No, Jim Crow was how the… I’m not sure if it was a person, but it really basically gave you the steps on how to do it. Like…

Melina: And it was a movement backwards.

Sylvester: Absolutely.

Melina: It was a backwards movement because there was a time we met for 10 years in the late 1800s, and the early 1900s where we had broken segregation. We had ended slavery. And we had black people that were moving, you know, right along and then the federal government stepped out.

Sylvester: Yeah. Then came reconstruction,

Melina: Reconstruction, that’s what they called it.

Sylvester: And then Jim Crow. Yeah. And then white supremacy and da-da-da. So Jim Crow, though, was basically just that, institutionalized racism put into government, put into practices, put into business.

Amir: You know what I’m hearing, right? Like it’s for me, I can obviously relate to it so much because, you know, in the ’40s in Europe, there was another constant constitutional force with specific instructions on how to be racist and beyond. So I can totally see, like, or relate at least kind of…

Melina: Yes, you can. Yes, you can. It’s very real. In the ’40s.

Amir: Not…

Melina: That’s not that long ago. No.

Amir: You know, Melina, when you were sharing that story, it made me think, you know, back in the ’30s, right?

Melina: Mm-hmm.

Amir: Where, you know, your family and another black family, and another Mexican family, there was sharing there, there was, like, there was love there, right?

Melina: Community.

Amir: There was community there. And it made me think. And those were different times. That was not…and correct me if I’m wrong. That was not… It’s not obvious. It’s not, like, it wasn’t easy to be in, like, being a good neighbor, you know, when you cross, kind of, when you cross race here in America, right? So it made me think, you know, it’s about mindset, and it’s also about good and evil.

Sylvester: I love that. It’s a good word. Yeah.

Amir: It’s about good and evil as well, you know, it’s…because, you know, and I think evil shows up in racism, like, the most, you know, that’s, like, the epitome.

Melina: Absolutely.

Amir: And, you know, it’s just…

Melina: It’s pretty unbelievable, isn’t it?

Amir: Unbelievable because that was good when everything around wasn’t like today.

Melina: Right. No, yeah, exactly.

Amir: And good is deeply rooted.

Melina: It is generational, apparently. I was shocked. My dad just told me this morning. I was completely shocked when he told me because I was really trying to get to the bottom of the conversation and really looking at myself and wanting to get honest about my own, you know, maybe unconscious bias that I have that I’m not even aware of and why. And so that’s why I started asking my dad and that’s when we kind of got…and I was completely shocked, but it made sense to me. I was, like, so that means that we can change the conversation, can’t we?

Sylvester: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Melina: We can change it generation to generation because my kids don’t have any… There’s no lines for them.

Amir: They don’t see color?

Melina: No, no, no. They see people. They see hearts. They say good… That’s right. We see good and evil. That’s it.

David: In fact, for us it was infuriating as kids. Like we had…my brother had this light-skinned friend. You know, he was light-skinned so he was never, like, that’s funny. We related to him, like, I’m in the… It’s funny you say people didn’t know what you were. Well, I’m, like, in the middle of the middle because—

Melina: Because he’s… you know, what is he?

Sylvester: You’re a quarter closer in one direction or the other.

Melina: What is that anyway?

David: Nobody accepts you. You’re not white enough.

Sylvester: They don’t know what to do with you.

David: You’re not brown enough for the browns.

Oscar: And I think we talked about it.

David: Absolutely. It’s true. No, I’m kidding. But we related, you know, to that. So it was just infuriating for people to treat people differently based on how they were to… Like, I was in a lot of fights as a kid for standing up for him and standing up for other friends like that. It was tough. It’s gotten better. And then this next generation, the kids now are…they’re not like we were.

Melina: They will not put up with it.

Oscar: They’re different. I’m so grateful for that.

Melina: These kids? Oh, no. Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

David: No way.

Melina: It’s not even a conversation.

Oscar: You know, so when you were sharing about your dad, immediately I go into suburbs. Even today if you go to the suburbs, it’s very different than, you know, bigger metropolitan areas like Los Angeles, for example. And then if I started thinking back in time, when people first migrated to America on the East coast, right, there was Little Italy, there was Koreatown, there was Chinatown, right? There’s all these, right? Very cliquey still. So, how much of that became some of the reasoning behind, right?

Melina: Absolutely.

Oscar: The racism, right? Because you’re crossing into my neighborhood now, right? And all those things that they used to take place. So I still see that in big cities, and it starts to blur a little bit in the suburbs, or it just goes in the closet. I’m not sure yet.

Sylvester: That’s interesting.

Melina: I feel like my grandparents got it right, though. Like, honestly, because what did they do? They didn’t try to change. I think that was the thing that I was the most moved by, what my dad shared with me was that they celebrated their differences.

Sylvester: That is it.

David: That’s true.

Melina: Isn’t that it?

Sylvester: That is it.

Melina: They didn’t try to change anybody. My grandfather wasn’t like, “No, no, you know, you’re not gonna eat hot peppers.” You know what I mean?

Sylvester: Yeah.

Melina: No, it was celebrating it.

Sylvester: You called it. So many times as an African-American, we feel like, and I can just speak that we have to assimilate in order to ingratiate it, in order to fit. God didn’t design us, we’re…

Melina: I know.

Sylvester: Our looks are different, what we eat is different, and we’re not designed for that. And the reason why there are so many fights and struggles, what is considered normal and the mainstream, we don’t fit into that because we’ve had to… Okay, this is how… You’re asking me to assimilate. This is how I view it. It’s like getting every nationality of races, and ethnicities, and cultures, of people together on a race to run a marathon, right? And they go, “On your marks. Get set. Go.” And the Caucasian people go, and the Germany people go, and the French people go, and different expressions of life go. But then they turn around and they say, “Okay, no, no. But African-Americans, we’re gonna have you sit in slavery for 400 years. And then we’re gonna give you segregation. And then we’re gonna give you Jim Crow. Then we’re gonna give you reconstruction. And then we’re gonna say, ‘Well, catch up. What’s the problem? Come on, catch up. Come on. What’s…?” If we can just learn to celebrate that…

Melina: Yes. Yes.

Sylvester: We gotta learn not… Like I said, your parents were just phenomenal people because they took… Like, I believe it’s, like, in the Jamaican foods, in the Caribbean’s foods, one of the things that I was so disappointed of is that my wife and I, we were supposed to go to Italy this year before our 25th, and we couldn’t go. And I was thinking, “Man, I’m gonna have some pizza over there.” And come to find out, “Hey, that’s American pizza.”

Melina: That’s an American. It’s not the same.

Sylvester: That’s not true Italian pizza.

Melina: No, it’s not…

Sylvester: Wait a minute. But it’s because people didn’t assimilate. They brought their own spin to pizza. They bring their own spin to dishes that we have this phenomenal American culture. If we would just let everybody have their expressions, everyone have their own ideals and ideologies of life, and cooking, and friendships, and let us come together, that’s how we’re gonna win.

Melina: That’s right. That’s exactly right. I think that was really what I wanted this conversation to be about…

Sylvester: That’s powerful.

Melina: …was I don’t wanna complain. I don’t want to whine. I didn’t bring you here to victimize you, right? I don’t wanna do that. I want to have a conversation that is honest and that keeps us, like, let’s talk about it. Let’s talk about the elephant, right?

Sylvester: Mm-hmm.

Melina: And we could go on and on. Like, I, just learned this whole white guilt thing. Like, okay, what the hell is that? Like, what is that about? I don’t know, right? Because okay. So help me understand that.

Sylvester: Okay. Okay. There are several terms I’m gonna be educating you on.

Melina: Okay. Okay. All right, because I can’t wait to hear because I watched somebody walking by… So I watched these kids with, you know, signs and somebody said, “Oh, that’s white guilt right there.” And I was, like, what is that? I heard that. And I said, “What is that?”

Sylvester: So white guilt is basically…and that’s an era in some of the ideologies of the younger generation. They can accept the fact there are some genuine, loving, Caucasian people that are concerned with the cause but instead say, “You’re only here because you’re guilty. You’re only here because you’ve done stuff and you feel guilty.” It’s not birth, or it doesn’t have its genesis in a genuine, organic feeling of equal rights for everybody.

Melina: Got it.

Sylvester: Now, have you heard of Karen yet? Karen, Chad.

Melina: Oh yeah, I did. I just learned about Karen. I learned about them. Yes, thank you to my millennial children. They all explained to me because I finally said…

David: Yeah, I don’t know.

Melina: You don’t know? David? I should say spoon and Andrew…

Sylvester: You’re on the outside, bro. You’re on the outside.

Melina: Actually, you’re a dad.

David: Yeah, I’m a dad.

Melina: You’re busy parenting. That’s not a bad thing. That’s a good thing.

Oscar: So Karen…

Sylvester: So Karen is a Caucasian lady between 35 and 45 that does not seek resolution, but she calls the cops for everything.

David: Oh, Karen.

Oscar: Like the dog incident at the park.

Sylvester: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Karen.

David: Come on, Karen.

Melina: Exactly. Come on, Karen.

Sylvester: There’s Karen, Susan, there’s Chad, Trevor. But on the same token, though, it’s how they reflect Tyron… I mean, you’d be surprised how many times… Hey, bro. What’s your last name? Watkins, Abdul. It’s like, no, that’s not… It just continues. But on the same token…let me show you how that can work. Celebrate the differences and not scorn, and not make an individual feel inferior because they don’t look like you. That’s the beauty of it. That’s the beauty of it, man. But it’s…

Oscar: You know, I’m gonna…I’ll share something with you that because you just kind of triggered this for me. So I went to that candle light vigil in Temecula with my son. And I don’t know how I feel about it now that you’ve said it, right? But that was exactly my reaction. When I saw white people there, it was like…

Melina: Did you feel like you’re not…

Oscar: Are you here because you’re really here, or are you here because you’re taking selfies?

Melina: You wanna be seen?

Oscar: Yeah. And you wanna be caught in that, right? And I didn’t know how to feel about it because it’s confusing, right? Because I wanna believe that they’re there for the right reason. But then you’re kneeling next to the Memorial and getting pictures taken.

Melina: That’s disgusting.

David: Right. And it’s like okay, so…

Melina: So it’s like me not even feeling, I didn’t even feel…I thought would be arrogant for me to hold a sign. That’s how I felt.

Oscar: Same.

Melina: I felt like I would just be arrogant, and I couldn’t do it. So that’s why I felt like I just stood with them and prayed.

Oscar: And that was me yesterday in Downtown Riverside was I walked with them, but I still had my Marine Corps shirt on, right? Because for me it was, like, what hit me yesterday is what you touched on earlier. I got emotional yesterday about it. And I got emotional for a few different reasons. An image I won’t get out of my head is this young lady stopped at the intersection, and she got on the roof of her car. And everybody that went by and made eye contact with her, it was just, “I love you. I love you. I love you.” Right? Beautiful, beautiful.

Melina: She was authentic.

Oscar: Absolutely.

Melina: So you can sniff out the authenticity.

Oscar: But African-American lady on top of her car saying, “I love you,” right? It’s just beautiful. And what started to happen for me was in between the other barking that’s going on and all the other weird stuff that’s being said and all that, more of those things started to show up for me. And I think she made it okay for me to look out for that instead of being caught up in the moment of everything that’s going on. And then it became this is why I served. This is why I served.

Sylvester: That’s good, man.

Oscar: Because people can actually do what they were doing.

Melina: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Oscar: They were able to now be there in delivering a message that’s not being heard and has fallen on deaf ears.

David: I definitely needed to hear that. I needed to hear that.

Oscar: So that’s something that I think you and I need to hold onto that what we served for isn’t what’s prevalent, right? What we served for was to make a change and allow others to be able to have those rights and enjoy those freedoms.

Sylvester: That’s right.

Oscar: And I know that rights and freedoms, right, right now it’s like there’s a lot of contention with it. But when I look at the flag and I look at that, that’s my belief…

Sylvester: That’s good. That’s good.

Oscar: …is that the American flag stands for the rights and freedoms that we all should have, and we need to continue to fight for.

Sylvester: That’s right. That’s an excellent…

Oscar: That was the whole thing from yesterday was just taking all that in. And so it’s in this conversation of course, as well. So…

Melina: So important to have. So important to have. And I don’t want the conversation to end, you know, and I think the only thing I can do is influence… if I look back and I look at my grandparents and I think they were nobody, they were just these little, old, you know, they were this…seriously, they were nobody. But the decisions or the choices that they made to live their life in a specific way directly influenced a lot of other people, right?

Sylvester: It did. Amazing, yeah. That’s phenomenal.

Melina: …when you think about it. Because I can look at that and go, “Well, that influenced my dad in the way that I was raised, which then influenced me in the way that I raised my children, which is now influencing what I’ve been able to create in terms of community.”

Sylvester: That’s good.

Melina: “And I didn’t even know it.”

Sylvester: That’s huge.

Melina: Isn’t that amazing?

David: And that’s what needs to become generational.

Melina: Yes, yes. Yes.

Sylvester: Oh, that’s good. That’s right.

David: That what needs to be…

Melina: That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. And all we can hope for is that my grandchildren, my great grandchildren, make a bigger influence, you know…

Sylvester: That’s right.

Melina: …and that we are raising up the lawmakers.

Sylvester: That’s right. That’s right.

Melina: Right?

Sylvester: Yeah. And the judges and the senators…

Melina: The judges and the investors. That’s exactly right.

Sylvester: That’s why, again, I celebrate what you do. Every time I was just saying, every time I come in here, the energy feels so peaceful. It’s one of the few environments that you can walk in consistently, even some churches, and I’ll just be quite frank with you. I mean, we’re not gonna even open that can but that is a huge, holy God bless America, can.

Melina: That’s another conversation. So I have a real problem with that. Like, I feel like that could be an actual podcast. Like, how is it, please help me understand how on one hand…

Sylvester: Boy.

Melina: …we said this and on the other hand, I can’t even reconcile it. Oh, my gosh, right?

Sylvester: Rick Warren said something the other day. He said something that so profound. He goes, “It’s a man, not a black man that someone put his knee in his throat and killed him.” And once you start, once you separate your issues, and your stereotypes, and your own opinions, and just see a human being…

Melina: Seriously. Seriously.

Sylvester: …a human…let alone. Let’s move all that…it’s a human being.

David: If it was an animal, we’d all be…

Sylvester: Yeah, we would’ve been going nuts. Are you crazy?

Melina: It’s true. It’s totally true. Totally true.

David: God. It’s nauseating.

Melina: I don’t understand how anybody isn’t outraged, how everybody isn’t outraged.

David: I don’t think there is anyone who’s not. I mean, I’m sure there’s a sick one.

Melina: Yeah. Yeah. I think those are few and far between, right? Yeah. Well, I guess we’ve… It’s a good time to wrap it up. So I feel like we could continue this conversation. And, Sly, can we get you to come back maybe and talk about…

Sylvester: I’d love to. I’d be honored.

Melina: …continue this conversation. Again, I don’t want it to be just the, you know, the one-hit wonder, you know, because of the moment, emotionally-driven.

Sylvester: And I wanna say to you and just the whole, you know, NWAC, for you all to use the influence and your, you know, the format and just how you guys are not afraid to tackle tough issues speaks to the integrity of what you stand for. I mean, integrity is a word you rarely even hear. And that speaks to your integrity. And I’m glad that I’m a part of it.

Melina: Thank you.

Sylvester: I’m glad I’m a part of it.

Melina: Thank you so much. I appreciate that. We love you so much. We’re so grateful for you. So we’re NWAC, and we’re flipping out. I’m Melina Boswell, your host of the “Flippin’ Off podcast.” I really hope you enjoyed it. If you did, we’d love for you to subscribe. Give us a five-star rating and tell your friends all about us. You can find more episodes of the “Flippin’ Off podcast” on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever else you like to listen to awesome podcasts like this. If you like what you’ve heard, we’d really appreciate it if you’d follow us on Facebook and Instagram and tell us the stories that you’d like to hear.

Tim Jackson is our senior producer. Luke Jackson is our editor. Brothers. Josh Mauldin is our producer. Sound design by Frequency Factory. Our executive producer is Mind & Mill. This was all created by Dave Boswell for New Wealth Advisors Club.